Fish: Re: [tropical fish club] Re: Grow a Fish kits

Hi Ray,
I'll put my reply in the body of your message.

Donna

________________________________
From: Ray <sevenspringss@wmconnect.com>
Re: Grow a Fish kits

Donna,

I had forgotten about Deb's gold Killiefish (don't even recall what species they
were). I do remember the American Flag Killiefish you had, and while I don't
remember too much of what you said about their behavior you experienced, I
thought they were at least somewhat aggressive. That was the main reason I
brought them up again, although maybe they weren't as bad as I thought.
## I don't remember what kind they were either, Golden Wonder comes to mind but
I have no idea if this is even a fish. Mine lived in a 10 gallon tank and the
male was territoral when I put my hands in the tank or got near the tank. He
did chase after the female but never looked he he would hurt he, he just kept
her in her space. When I gave those fish to JC and dumped the tank I realized
to late it had fry in it. I was devastated I had killed all those baby's.

I'm glad you found the earlier account in the 1950's, of the same concept of
selling these 'instant fish' kits at least interesting, and while it could have
lead to promoting the hobby better if it had been done right, I agree that when
a large company promotes such an idea with the sales of these kits without
proper maintenance instructions with their sole purpose of just making profits
it's just plain irresponsible.
## were on the same page with this its irresponsible.

I have to place all the blame on these larger companies looking just to make a
buck, with no regard for the life within these eggs they sell or sufficient
instructions on how best to succeed in raising these fish -- or even a warning
to the yet-to-be hobbyist that it's not as simple as tossing the kit's
ingredients into a bowl. While I do understand from past reports, that there
were instructions included with these ear;ier kits, I have no idea of just how
far they went. While I can't blame the unsuspecting public for jumping on the
idea, at least some of this does seem to come back to those kinds of people such
as whom Dawn mentioned, that insist on thinking that fish should be
maintenance-free, and who refuse to listen to any instructions to the contrary.
## I still hold the egg seller to blame for a large part of this. He/she should
have made sure that information provided to people was ample and correct for
them to raise and care for these fish. I know this is a sticky place because
many many people make their living selling fish and other live animals. If the
seller is handing out the correct information and doing their part to make sure
the buyer and then the end buyer is getting that information than I say ok. But
normally these animals just get sold and no one takes the time to make sure they
will be safe. I am not a big fan of regulations but in this case I think
Scotland has the right idea. If your going to buy an animal you have to prove
you know how and have the resources to care for it correctly.

As I see it, there are mostly very responsible people in this hobby who, even if
they didn't know of the maintenance needed to keep their fish alive when they
first started out, they at least seek advice later on when they see they need
help -- either through their LFS owner or through groups like ours.
Unfortunately though, there are far too many people who go into fish who would
rather treat them as disposable, choosing to just replace them as they die off,
without further regard for them or how to properly take care of the new ones
they keep buying -- and who choose not to seek advice, as their fish deaths mean
nothing more to them than throwing out the garbage.

These types of people bear some responsibility in this whole scheme of things,
which by misfortune we have no control over. It's for this reason that, while I
understand that if it weren't for breeders like Rosario supplying these
companies with fish eggs to enable such companies to continue, I really can't
blame him in the least. I'm trusting you're not including people like him when
saying that people selling the eggs are irresponsible. I see it as the
responsibility coming down solely on these large companies looking just to make
their profits. With it, I'm hoping that at least some smaller percentage of
these kits fell into the hands of enthusiastic fish lovers who had success with
them, and which spurred them on to become aquarists; I guess that's about all we
can hope for at this stage of the game.

## I do place a large part of the blame on him/them if not for the eggs none of
these animals would have suffered. Selling to a company with out knowing they
will be teaching the correct care is irresponsible in my book. If they lied to
him and told him the care would meet his standards than thats a different story.
I seriously doubt he even looked into or he would have forced them to make
changes or not sell the eggs to them.

For those not very familiar with Killies and the hatching of their eggs,
hatching of them takes a minimum of nearly 3 weeks for those fish of which their
habitat doesn't dry out (these fish are not 'Annuals'), and for "Annuals," can
take up to 4 to 6 months in the storage of damp peat moss to incubate them.
Ideally then, they are prime candidates to be able to be mailed to other
hobbyists. Members of the American Killifish Association sell or exchange
Killie eggs regularly, although fortunately, the members receiving them are
usually responsible enough to see to their well being. Live Killies are also
shipped through the mail by members of this organization.

Other national groups, like the American Cichlid Association sell and mail live
Cichlids, as do members of the American Livebearers Associatiion sell and mail
live Swordtails and Mollies to each other, but again, the recipients are usually
responsible hobbyists. Now, if the recipients of any of these fish or eggs were
not responsible enough to see to their proper maintenance, I'd hope that we
can't put any blame on the breeders as being irresponsible, any more than can
Deborah, JoAnne or I be seen as being irresponsible when selling hundreds of
Angelfish to the pet shops every month, or when Bill used to raise lots of
Discus to supply his LFS's.

We realize, that it's impossible for the hobby to gain hundreds of new hobbyists
each and every month, yet there is always a constant demand for these fish --
telling me that lots of them must be dying st the hands of people who either
don't know how to take care of them, or -- who view these fish just as being
replaceable items to entertain them.
After all, Angelfish have a life span of between 6 and 8 years when properly
cared for, and Discus can live even longer. Breeders can only keep LFS's
stocked in hopes that at least some of these fish find their way to more caring
hobbyist who'll see to their proper maintenance. We know that the percentage of
fish that actually make it long-term is small, otherwise there would be no
demand for them by the fish shops, but we can only hope for the best. A fish
breeder of any types of fish, whether it be Neon Tetras or White Cloud Minnows,
would find themselves in the same position, as the LFSs are always selling more
and more fish during the "season" (excluding the Summer) to a fish keeping
public which doesn't increase that much, although which does have a certain
turn-over of would-be hobbyists who keep killing them. Ray
## Do I want fish stores to close? No. Do I want to see more breeders making
the fish stores give correct information? YES . When people have African Clawed
Frog and Dwarf African Clawed Frog baby's to sell we make sure to have only
place them in stores where they will hang care sheets on the tank and hand them
out to anyone taking them home. The mom and pop stores are happy to do this.
If they won't we tell people to take their frogs somewhere else. I know this
is not the way the aquatic world runs as of now but I'd really like to see this
happen. I remember Deb selling some of her angels to a store that did not care
for them correctly. She did not sell anymore of her fish to them. I really
want to see all the sellers step up and make sure proper care instructions are
given out. If this part happens then I would no longer place any blame on the
sellers.

--- In tropicalfishclub@yahoogroups.com, Donna King <donnalynneking@...> wrote:
>
> Very interesting information. I just remember the gold ones Deb had that got
> quite aggressive when breeding.
>
>
> It just makes me sick that these animals are considered disposable. I don't
> believe the people selling the eggs are any less responsible for what happened

> the these fish. They in my mind should not sell to people who are mass
> marketing animals. Just that should have given them a clue people who didn't

> know how to care for fish were going to get them and they would die.
> Donna
>
> 
>

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