Fish: Re: [tropical fish club] a little OT

Larry, I'm not horrified. I think a better word would be "disturbed" by what you wrote about goldfish tank sizes and care. Unfortunately, deformities in goldfish who are kept in small tanks tend to be internal rather than external as long as the water is kept clean. After yrs of necropsy I have noted a common factor in stunted goldfish (and a few other species) is that the organs don't grow properly, which greatly shortens the life of the animal. I guess my question to you is, knowing that the tank is too small for their needs and has the potential to cause harm... why then would anyone do such a thing? If someone cares that little for the well being of the fish, why get it in the first place?

I can't show you 2 goldfish in a 100 gallon tank, however, I can show you photos of 1 goldfish in a 215 gallon tank, and I may have some photos of him in a 120 gallon tank before moving to the larger tank.
Sadly not many people have seen a full grown and healthy goldfish because most of them die long before they reach their adult size, or they are stunted by keeping them in smaller tanks. Fancy goldfish have a potential lifespan of up to 25 yrs. Whenever a new visitor came to my house and saw Freddy their first question was "what is that?" These were all "fish people" who knew what a fancy goldfish was... but had never seen one his size for the reasons listed above.

When I worked at the store we used to choose a few juvenile goldfish each spring and put them into our 92 gallon display to raise to near adult size. These fish were sold to various businesses who kept large goldfish tanks and could accommodate them. In the mean time we used them as teaching tools. When someone would come ask for a goldfish to put into their 10, 20, or 30 gallon tank we would walk them to the display and ask how the fish would fit into their tank. The common reaction was "oh, no, I don't want one of those... I want one of the little kind". When it was explained that the little kind were simply younger versions of the big ones a lot of people were not only shocked but in awe... and easily agreed at that point that the fish would need a much larger tank.

I will dig through my photos today and see what I can find of pictures of Freddy just for you. I don't want to fight or argue with anyone, but I do wish to convince you (and anyone else with the idea goldfish can stay in small tanks) that keeping a goldfish in a little tank is cruel to the animal and shouldn't be done. If a small tank is all someone can accommodate then the easy solution is to keep fish that won't outgrow the tank without having to be stunted. If someone were to talk about keeping an 8 inch jack dempsey or oscar in a 29 gallon tank everyone would be having a fit about how awful that is... so I just don't understand why it's ok for one and not another if the end result would be the same?

Dawn

Dawn Moneyhan
Aquatics Specialist/Nutritionist
To learn more about me go to
http://www.helium.com/users/449334

--- On Mon, 4/1/13, Larry Blanchard <labl02@aol.com> wrote:

From: Larry Blanchard <labl02@aol.com>
Subject: Re: [tropical fish club] a little OT - goldfish death
To: tropicalfishclub@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, April 1, 2013, 12:20 PM

On 03/31/2013 09:09 PM, Dawn Moneyhan wrote:

> Larry, sorry to hear of your losses. I'm with Ray about checking pH with your liquid test kits at the store as well as in your tank.

I think I've eliminated that as a problem. The last fish I got was

looking a bit sluggish in the problem tank, so I filled a 20 gallon with

water from the same source and moved him/her to it. Happiest fish you

ever saw - swims up to greet me when I open the lid - eats like a pig :-).

So it would seem to be something in the 29 that's poisoning the water.

Something that the test kits doen't test and the AquaSafe doesn't

neutralize. I normally don't use carbon in the filter but I'm going to

do so in that tank along with removing everything except the gravel and

the water. Then I'll try it with a couple of feeders.

> Can you tell us what procedure you used for acclimation of the fish and for how long? Were there any symptoms at all before the fish died?

Put'em in a bucket with the store water - gradually add water from my

tank for 30-60 minutes - submerse the bucket in the tank. Yes I know

that common knowledge says store water is bad but I think it's

preferable to netting the fish or skipping the acclimation. Works for me.

No symptoms I could see except they weren't very interested in food -

they eventually ate it but the enthusiasm was lacking.

As far as your comments on tank size, I get into trouble every time this

comes up. Sure, that's the ideal, but we keep a lot of fish in a much

smaller environment than ideal. Back in the 1940's, 20 square inches of

water surface per inch of goldfish was the rule. That would have meant

that a 10" fish only needed a 10"x20" tank which of course is

ridiculous. But they didn't reach 10" because the small tanks inhibited

their growth.

I had two common goldfish in a 10 gallon tank for 10 years until my

little sister killed them by dumping a whole can of food in the tank -

for some reason my mother prevented me from killing her :-). They grew

to about 3" fairly rapidly and stopped. There were no visible signs of

deformity and their behavior was normal. BTW, there were no filters or

water conditioners available back then - at least not available in pet

shops, most of which were departments in bigger stores. We just set our

water out overnight to get rid of chlorine and did a lot of water changes.

So, while I don't disagree with your ideal, in practice I have yet to

see 2 goldfish in a 100 gallon tank. I'm sure there's one somewhere.

Most koi in ponds don't have that kind of space.

I fully expect to get horrified responses to this post - I always do

:-). But please note that recommendations for goldfish tank size vary

quite a bit - here's one from goldfishconnection.com:

"At minimum ten gallons of tank space must be allowed for each goldfish.

If your intent is to collect large, show-quality goldfish then this

limit increases to 20-30 gallons per goldfish."

Larry B

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