I don't know of any viral disease in fish that is contracted via direct contact. Actually, I can't think of any fish disease that is spread or contracted by direct contact. As Karen's troubled fish apparently appeared outwardly healthy when she first added it to the tank of Angels she had in this tank for some time, and only started to develop the disease symptoms a couple of months ago, there's the distinct chance that this fish may have contracted this virus before Karen obtained it (and it may have lain dormant within the fish for 4 months). As the manifestation of this disease is within the tissue, and not on it, there's no reason to believe that this virus in necessarily in Karen's water column -- unless an open sore from it developed. Therefore, I feel it's still prudent to remove this fish from the tank, as the possibilty strongly remains that the other fish haven't yet been exposed to this disease.
Even while there's no way of knowing this for sure, the sooner the diseased fish is removed from the tank -- unless the other fish have been exposed (which remains unseen) -- the chances are still good that the virus may not have yet entered this water column, which is a reasonable step to take in hopes the virus has remained only within the fish's tissue. It's worth the try, in the effort to isolate the disease when it's otherwise unknown if or if not the disease has gained access to the water.
As I too said, the only time this disease causes the death of the infected fish is when the fish loses it's appetite as a result of it -- it causes death to the fish through the fish's inability to eat; in this case, its loss of appetite. I might guess that by "inability to eat," that you mean the lesion(s) get to large and physically blocks the fish from eating.
By the further physical description of this disease, I can see that you and I are referring to two different viral diseases. The virus I'm referring to is not Lymphosystis, nor does it infect any other part of the body than the lips. It may start as a smaller lesion on one of the lips, resulting in the uniform swelling of the whole lip involved or both lips -- but only the lip(s). It may also start out without initially involving any small lesion, but just the manifestation of the affected lip (or lips) uniformly growing to abnormal proportions. This is far different than single isolated lesions of Lymphsystis, no matter how many such lesions may affect a fish -- and occasionally, they can be numerous.
Angelfish contracting this lip-swelling virus may live fine after the disease is seen for up to 6 months, 9 months or even a year -- until it's seen that its appetite is waining, and it fades away. It will also often be seen that, after a period of time, that while the fish's appetite during this time before losing it may seem normal to the observer, that the fish's growth has not kept up with its tankmates, indicating it may not have actually been eating as well as the others all along. While I've seen Lymphocystis infect only a few, or whole tankfulls of fish, I've never seen the virus I'm referring to affect any more than one fish at a time, although I have seen another fish contract this same disease after an infected fish was removed from the tank only after an extended period of time, at which time the virus may have eventually become water-borne -- which goes back to my believing that such a fish so infected may not have affected any other fish if removed much sooner. This swollen lip virus will become water borne, but in my observations only towards the end of an infected fish's extended stay, either at its demise or at its loss of appetite stage.
Disinfecting any nets, hoses or any other equipment that used from tank to tank is always a good rule to follow, even if they were not infected to begin with. There's no way of knowing for certain whether a disease may be developing in any one tank, at any one time, and taking such precautions will reduce the chances of spreading it.
Ray
--- In tropicalfishclub@yahoogroups.com, Dawn Moneyhan <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote:
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> Just to add a bit of reassurance here, I have seen many cases of this virus running its course and the symptoms disappearing, and the fish do fine and live full lives afterwards. Sometimes it comes back (think of it like the flu in people), sometimes it doesn't... but I have not seen many cases of death as a direct result of this virus as long as the fish is able to eat and it is kept healthy overall.
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> As for removing the infected fish... the virus is in the tank at present, so removing the fish would be rather pointless, the others have already been exposed. This is not something that is contracted only via direct contact from fish to fish. Again, think of the flu in people... some catch it and others don't, whether there is direct contact between people or not. Its not the direct contact that usually makes it contagious, but rather exposure to the virus which can go air born via sneezing, etc. Lymphocystis works much the same way, going "water born" within the tank.Â
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> I have seen tanks full of angelfish where only 1 or 2 contract it, and I have seen tanks full where all of them contract it. The only time I have seen it cause death to the fish is through inability to eat. Lymphocystis is not confined to lumps/lesions around the mouth area, either. It can appear as lesions/cysts in the fins and even on the body. Some of the most severe cases I've seen have literally covered the entire fish (fins and body/mouth area) but even in these situations, I have seen the fish heal and do fine afterwards. It can take a few wks to a few months for the cysts to disappear, so there isn't a time frame I can offer to watch for it to go away. Keeping the environment in good condition (water parameters, minimal stress, etc.) does appear to help lessen the severity of this condition and will help to ensure that the fish has the best chance to survive and thrive afterwards.
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> If you are keeping multiple tanks and have not yet exposed the other tanks to equipment, nets, etc. from this tank, now is a good time to start, to avoid the spread. Nets can be soaked in saltwater to help disinfect them, and your hands can also be rinsed in saltwater before moving onto another tank. Anytime you handle anything from the infected tank be sure to go through the steps to avoid contaminating other tanks.Â
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> If you'd like to post photos of the infected fish this would surely help to confirm the diagnosis.
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> Dawn
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> Â
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> Dawn Moneyhan
> Aquatics Specialist/Nutritionist
> To learn more about me go to
> http://www.helium.com/users/449334
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> --- On Tue, 9/6/11, Ray <sevenspringss@...> wrote:
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> From: Ray <sevenspringss@...>
> Subject: [tropical fish club] Re: angelfish question
> To: tropicalfishclub@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, September 6, 2011, 1:16 AM
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> Hi Karen,
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> Glad to see your tank(s) are flourishing. I'm assuming you stillhave the other 55 gallon as well as the 75 gallon. I'm glad I could be of help at that time of need, when you had those problems -- at least I hope I was able to finally help. I remember the long ordeal you went through in trying to get all three tanks stable. That all your tank parameters have now been "normal" and doing well now for a good while, it might appear as though my recommendations may have been helpful after all, which I very pleased for you if that's the case.
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> Without a photo, this growth is hard to diagnose, but as Dawn mentions, I too believe this is a lesion caused by a virus -- which I was about to reply to you earlier this evening about, soon after seeing your posts. Had some local club business to take care of first though, and I knew you couldn't do very much about this condition anyway, as I've never seen it treatable.
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> It is contagious, but I've never seen it "highly contagious." Still, there is no benefit of keeping the affected fish with other Angels at this point as inevitably another Angel mat contract it -- even if it's three months down the road. The longer you keep such an infected fish with others, the more likely that another Angel with get this same virus.
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> Unlike Dawn's observations though, I've never seen this condition go away and then come back at another time, and I've seen a number of these cases. Whenever I've seen the manifestation of this virus, it has always remained with the fish. I know of nothing that will treat it. Unfortunately, many viruses are just not cureable, even including the common cold that we develop. There's the chance that, just like the common cold, that this virus may run its course and have the symptom disappear with the help of the fish's immune system, as I suspect is what happened with the fish Dawn saw with the symptoms subsiding as these less threatening diseases may act in various ways with different fish.
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> If it's one of a pair, and you wish to continue breeding them, remove them both from the tank so that others aren't exposed to it for any longer than they need to. The mate may or may not develop this same virus, but the only other alternative is to just remove the affected fish which precludes any further breeding. Any cases I've seen with it eventually ends with the fish's demise after a long period of time; the fish's general health just seems to be gradually pulled down after a while.
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> Since you brought up the possibility of this being a deformity from inbreeding, I can tell you it's not, but I've seen unscrupulous breeders try to sell these fish as a new strain of thick-lipped Angelfish (the entire lip most often becomes affected, unlike your's just having a localized lesion). They will eat normally for a good while, but will usually stop feeding gradually as this virus pulls them down after some time.
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> Ray
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> --- In tropicalfishclub@yahoogroups.com, "Karen Martin" <DanemarkDanes@> wrote:
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> > I have a well established tank where everyone seems to be flourishing well.
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> > Tank parameters have all been normal and doing well for quite a while now
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> > thanks to Ray's help offline. Anyway, I have an angel that was in my tank
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> > for months, maybe 6 with no issues, bought at a LFS. The last couple months
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> > he/she has had this growth like protuberance on the upper lip. Doesn't
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> > affect how she he eats and seems normal in every other way. What causes this
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> > to happen and can you do anything about it. Doesn't seem to both him/her at
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> > all. I've seen others with this before but for some reason I just thought
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> > they were deformed or something from inbreeding. But this one was not this
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> > way until recently and I had it over 6 months when it happened.
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> > Thanks for the advice!
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> > Karen
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